Films of Faith List Discussion + Suggestions (Genre Project)

[domino harvey]

Anna und Elisabeth (Frank Wisbar 1933) --swo17 Spotlight-- A young woman prays to God to bring her brother back to life and God appears to hear her as the boy does indeed return to the mortal coil. Burdened with the intense reputation and awe/fear dichotomy that comes from faith-healing, the girl tries to deny her apparent powers, only to fall under the sway of an insistent recent cripple, who calls upon the girl to heal her and then refuses to let her go. The resultant relationship is intense to put it mildly, and to my eyes the film is less concerned with the religious aspects of this arrangement than with the pull of zealotry and how it intermingles with the undeniably sexual energy that comes from being "cured" by having "hands placed upon you." And while the film ends with an extreme realization of "gay panic," it doesn't quite feel satisfactory or answer many of the questions raised or hinted at by the action. And by action I mean expressions. The film is a sound picture, but I keep thinking back on it as being silent, probably due to the powerful emotive acting from the titular leads.

After viewing the film, I do wonder if I should make room for Lynn Shelton's Touchy Feely on my list, which similarly placed an everyday person in the midst of inadvertent faith-healing-- though in Shelton's film, it's an incidental side effect of modern dentistry and there are no attempts made to explain where Josh Pais (another great "That guy" in a rare leading role) got said powers or if they really exist. It is admittedly a film that even patient indie movie lovers seem to detest, but I think it's one of the best examples in recent memory of a type of movie which has become increasingly difficult to produce good results, and it was on my Top Ten list for 2013.

the Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima (John Brahm 1952) Surprisingly engaging and well-made adaptation of the three Portuguese children who received monthly visits from a spectral Virgin Mary. Strangely enough, I first heard about these visions from Unsolved Mysteries when I was a kid, and while this film mostly shies away from the prophecies the Holy Mother passed down to the trio of kids, it heightens the human drama of their struggle in a very Hollywood way (though without the help of any marquee stars). Sure, the narrative additions here are a bit much, but on the other hand they do tally up to one immensely satisfying film entertainment. I especially enjoyed the comic relief character of the callous atheist drunk who delivers such wonderfully crass lines and exploitations of miracles he doesn't believe in (before his inevitable conversion, natch) that it would be easy to read his presence in the film as subversive. The DVD of the film also replicates the saturated tones of the film's WarnerColor cinematography marvelously-- this is one of the most visually sumptuous films I've seen in recent memory, which isn't too bad for such a cheap production (at one point we can see a literal tear in the heavens from above the hills of the cova, like someone punched a hole through the backdrop). Recommended, but the more cynical amongst you will probably not get much from it. (Actually, it now looks like all three of the films in Warners' Films of Faith collection are likely to make my list, so I can give that purchase a thumbs-up for the adventurous)

Mr Krueger's Christmas (Kieth Merrill 1980) Take the most depressing two minutes in TV history-- the snack vendor's fantasy in the "Daydream" episode of NewsRadio-- and stretch it to twenty-five minutes and you have this dour piece of holiday un-cheer, produced by the Mormon Church and starring James Stewart as the titular character. Mr Krueger the elderly custodian loves Christmas but is all alone on Christmas Eve and we follow him in his empty routine as he imagines himself made important in scenarios and situations of fantasy and warmth. And then cruel hard reality crashes back on him and Stewart's down in his basement apartment, talking to his cat. Even the alleged reason for so much pain-- Jesus loves all of us, even those who are alone-- is still just more sad than inspiring, as it depicts Christ as a kind of last resort for those with no one else left. Recommended if you want to place how bad you though this Christmas went for you in proper perspective.

O Pagador de Promessas (Anselmo Duarte 1962) In a year when the Exterminating Angel and L'eclisse also competed, it was this Brazilian film which walked away with the unanimous Palme d'Or at Cannes. The satirical tale of a stubborn Catholic farmer who makes a promise to Saint Barbara to carry and deliver a wooden cross seven miles to the alter of the Saint Barbara Church, only to discover that the priest of the church believes his promise was made under the influence of Satanic forces due to the history of slaves in Brazil using Catholic names and titles to disguise their non-Christian rites and beliefs from their masters, a tradition which has led to present-day farmer to inadvertently make his promise in a non-church sanctioned fashion. The resultant head-butting rises up the ire of the small town, and there's a noticeable racial divide to the side-taking as the film goes on. It admittedly is pretty easy to see where this film is going at all times, and it's not particularly great at what it does, but I enjoyed the film for hitting the notes well and delivering the media circus and inevitable martyrdom of "the Second Christ." There is a pretty weird runner/b-plot throughout involving the wife of the protagonist and her dalliance with a pimp, however, that feels oddly at sorts with the rest of the film and adds nothing of ultimate value to the proceedings-- it seems like something from a different film, but not a better one.

the Pagan Christ (Cynthia Banks 2007) Canadian news doc on one religious scholar's bold claims that the story of Jesus Christ can be traced back to Egyptian mythology and in fact he never existed. Okay, so, a big claim like that needs a little bit more than "I saw hieroglyphs and pictures on walls that looked like those found on stained glass in my church" (paraphrasing, but not by much), and while the religious scholars they bring in to debunk the claims make just as strident claims in opposition, I came away from this with not even enough conjecture to make it worthwhile as a jumping-off point for discussion. Granted, this was a 45-minute piece from what appears to be the Canadian-equivalent to Dateline, but I still expected more.

[swo17]

it doesn't quite feel satisfactory or answer many of the questions raised or hinted at by the action...

is still just more sad than inspiring, as it depicts Christ as a kind of last resort for those with no one else left

These two points raise an interesting question: In this genre, how many answers can/should a film provide? And I don't just mean the answer to "Was it really a miracle?" Obviously, a film risks losing universal appeal if it takes a side either firmly for or against faith. And generally, it's probably more dramatically satisfying (if not necessary) for these stories to leave you with much of the ambiguity and mystery that form such an integral part of faith to begin with. But I might say that the most noteworthy films from the genre are those that dare to take a side, but in a way that is still able to find some kind of universal appeal. Ordet for instance comes to mind. Any others?

P.S. I will have to check out Touchy Feely. And for another "Is it or isn't it a miracle?" film, Satyajit Ray's Devi/The Goddess (available on Criterion's Hulu channel) is highly recommended.

[domino harvey]

Ambiguity doesn't bother me too much in most films unless that refusal to take sides ends up weakening the overall effect. It's funny you should mention this at all, however, because I was actually thinking of a film with opposite religious ends in conjunction with this film, the Night of the Eagle / Burn Witch Burn, wherein it is pretty clear that witchcraft/Satanic forces are indeed at work and yet the film still feels compelled to put an impish "...Or were they?" button on everything, which just ends up hobbling the overall film (Worth noting that Satanic and witchcraft-laden films are of course eligible for the list)

It was a bit of poor wording on my part, as I don't think Anna und Elisabeth suffers from its refusal to ask questions, but I did feel like the pic didn't explore the interesting angles of its two characters as well as it might and thus the unanswered questions contribute to a somewhat unsatisfying narrative on the whole. However, the performances are strong and the sexual subtext intriguing, so there's lots here to recommend and I was glad to have seen the film, which I surely would never have encountered otherwise. But I also couldn't help but notice that the glossier, more conventional take on an unexplained miracle and a small town's reaction I also watched this round, the Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima, was a much better film in part because it treated its central miracle matter of factly and allowed for others to express doubts and hesitations without necessarily entertaining them as valid on a narrative level. It's a decision that by design alienates viewers, but I can respect a film that takes a position regardless of what side I take (but conversely that doesn't mean I'm going to praise Jud Suss or whatever on those grounds). That said, I think it's more a question that must be addressed on a case-by-case basis. For instance, to continue with my last round's viewings, Mr Krueger's Christmas is not a better or worse film because it acts as a proselytizing tool.

[zedz]

Ambiguity doesn't bother me too much in most films unless that refusal to take sides ends up weakening the overall effect. It's funny you should mention this at all, however, because I was actually thinking of a film with opposite religious ends in conjunction with this film, the Night of the Eagle / Burn Witch Burn, wherein it is pretty clear that witchcraft/Satanic forces are indeed at work and yet the film still feels compelled to put an impish "...Or were they?" button on everything, which just ends up hobbling the overall film (Worth noting that Satanic and witchcraft-laden films are of course eligible for the list)

I think the big problem with that kind of "or were they?" trope is that so often it's little more than a narrative reflex. Filmmakers believe ambiguity is a desirable quality, and they'll ram it into the film any old way, even if it's completely inelegant or makes nonsense of the rest of the film.

Whereas in something like Stalker, the central ambiguity is inherent in every aspect of the script and its staging.

A good recent example of an opposite trend, which I found equally dissatisfying, was Stations of the Cross - which is probably as close to a must-see for this project as any film released in the last year.

The film is extremely controlled, unfolding in long, generally static tableaux that relate to the fourteen stations of the cross and tell the tale of a thoroughly indoctrinated Christian girl who decides to martyr herself through starvation, ostensibly to 'save' her young, intellectually handicapped brother. I say ostensibly, because there's plenty of ambiguity as to exactly what is motivating her extreme actions, not all of it spiritual.

The thoroughly predictable 'twist' comes at the end, and you can see it coming a long way ahead, like you're crashing into a wall in slow motion, and you just know the filmmaker isn't going to pull out of the skid at the last minute, though you keep praying he does:

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She dies, and at that very moment, her brother speaks for the first time. And on the soundtrack you can hear God, who talks like Isaac Hayes, growl, "yeah, bitch." Though maybe I imagined that last bit.

I'm sure the filmmakers felt they were being Incredibly Provocative and Counterintuitive, but I was just disappointed that they were stripping out a lot of interesting potential meanings from their film. The one they're left with -

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fundamentalist Christianity is absolutely horrible, even if it's objectively correct

- is fair enough, I suppose, but I found it a lot less interesting than some of the other psychological and character-based possibilities it shut down.

Another contemporary film worth checking out as absolutely on point for this project is Ulrich Seidl's Paradise: Faith. Personally, I found this the least successful (and most strident) of the trilogy, but it certainly presents a complicated take on faith. Arguably the entire trilogy might be under consideration, given the structural resonances between the parts, which encourages us to see 'religious' components in each woman's personal quest.

Going back another couple of years, there's also Lourdes, which I liked much less than most but is also in that vaguely ironic / sarcastic modern mode.

[Michael Kerpan]

Possibly my favorite "spiritual" film ever -- the 5 hour long (animated) Haibane Renmei (art and story by Yoshitoshi Abe. Draws inspiration from Murakami's Hard-Boiled Wonderland and End of the World, and from Kore'eda's Mabprosi and After Life. Not Christian or Buddhist, but some elements of both.

So, of course, Kore-eda's After Life.

BAE's Why Has Bodhidharma Left for the East? Probably the best explicitly Buddhist film.

Bunuel's Nazarin -- my favorite "Catholic" film.

[matrixschmatrix]

Not spotlights, but I do want to bring up both My Neighbor Totoro and Princess Mononoke as films that I think both qualify and deserve high ranking on this list- the former is as beautiful a working through of animist/Shinto faith, its rewards and outlook, and the sheer joy of finding a god in the garden as I've seen in my (admittedly limited) experience, and the latter works well as a sort of Götterdämmerung explanation of man's ascendancy against the same animistic/Shinto gods- which would probably be a view I'd like better than my own initial reaction to it.

[matrixschmatrix]

zedz your take on Stations of the Cross

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fundamentalist Christianity is absolutely horrible, even if it's objectively correct

reminds me of Frailty, which I think is a much better movie if taken that way-

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there too, the ax murdering apparent schizophrenic Bill Paxton turns out to be correct, and he is indeed killing demons on the side of the angels- which, given how he has actually behaved throughout the movie, and what his children have been through, does a lot more to cast aspersions on any God who would require such service than it does vindicate his belief system.

Though I still have no idea of whether that was the intended takeaway or not.

[domino harvey]

Re: Frailty (not unspoilering Stations of the Cross comments, so I may be misunderstanding you)

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It matches up with the actions of the God of the Bible, so I'm not sure why it should be surprising or controversial. It's always struck me as strange that some audience members get disappointed by Frailty's ending, because otherwise the film has just been a movie about child abuse (as it appears to be for most of the running time) and why are viewers getting disappointed that it's not?

[jindianajonz]

Possibly my favorite "spiritual" film ever -- the 5 hour long (animated) Haibane Renmei (art and story by Yoshitoshi Abe. Draws inspiration from Murakami's Hard-Boiled Wonderland and End of the World, and from Kore'eda's Mabprosi and After Life. Not Christian or Buddhist, but some elements of both.

I've had this sitting on my shelf for a few months now (possibly after you recommended it in another thread) and was just trying to figure out what TV show I wanted to watch next. So thanks for the reminder!

While we're on the subject of anime, how would something like Neon Genesis Evangelion fall, assuming that it counts as a mini series? It is heavily steeped in Christian names and imagery, and is ostensibly a sci-fi reimagining of Adam and Eve, but the creators have also said that they only used Christianity because it was uncommon enough in Japan to give the show an exotic edge, and the show really isn't intended to comment on religion even as it delves into the metaphysical. I would personally put it as more interested in psychology than faith, but figured it wouldn't hurt to ask the question (and coming fresh off a rewatch, could probably find a place for it on my list if I knew others were treating it as eligible).

[Mr Sausage]

Never seen Neon Genesis Evangelion, but my own personal definition is: does it contain a set of coherent metaphysics either as part of the diegesis or as a principle for structuring the narrative? And if so, is its magnitude enough to warrant being a religious film as opposed to a film in which there is religion?

As the movie you describe is using mythological symbols to structure its narrative (and maybe even create an allegory), it's probably worth including. Creating significance by deploying a pattern of mythological symbols is a religious film in my eyes, because it is establishing and working through the meaning of those symbols explicitly. That counts as dialoguing with a religion. The only question is: does it do enough of this to be worth including? If it's a central structural principle, then it sort of has to be.

[Michael Kerpan]

Haibane Renmei is actually interested in "sin" and "redemption" -- albeit in a way that is probably more consistent with Buddhist principles than Christian ones (though these may enter into play as well).

I would note that Texhnolyze and Serial Experiment Lain (both made by a lot of the same team as made HR) also are full of religious elements (albeit darker and more negative overall -- especially Texhnolyze).

Not an expert on NGE, so I will defer to others who are better inofrmed...

Two more (non-animated recs) -- both by LEE Chang-dong -- Secret Sunshine and Poetry. The first centers around Christian concepts (especially evangelical -- not fundamentalist -- Christian issues), while the second seems to have a strong (but latent) Buddhist tinge.

[Shrew]

I don't think Evangelion qualifies as a mini-series at 26 episodes. Granted, the rules of production for a lot of anime series differ from US TV series, resulting in more shows planned for one season under a single director/auteur. But they also tend to run for "full seasons" and are designed as episodic, if often heavily serialized, stories. At 13 episodes, Haibane Renmei is a bit of a stretch too, and if I recall the stories about its production correctly, it got greenlighted on the basis of a few sketches and production began before any clear ending or plot was written (which I feel classifies it more as TV than a movie). Still, both are worth watching and I wouldn't discourage anyone from exploring them. You can vote for whatever you think qualifies (even Deadwood season 1).

I probably won't be voting for Evangelion (either the series or the various films) anyway, since the religious aspects feel like window dressing. I'd class it the same way I would Star Wars, or even Clash of the Titans--things that adopt aspects of exotic religions but are more interested in using them to make "cool" things than in exploring any questions of faith or belief.

[swo17]

Regarding the Stations and Frailty discussion, I don't know, is rigorous adherence to a strict religious code that much more harrowing of an existence than run-of-the-mill, everyday life is depicted in a film like Magnolia?

[colinr0380]

I think I would have to agree with Shrew on this, as I hadn't really considered Neon Genesis Evangelion for the list due to the number of episodes in its series. But it is very interesting to discuss.

Never seen Neon Genesis Evangelion, but my own personal definition is: does it contain a set of coherent metaphysics either as part of the diegesis or as a principle for structuring the narrative? And if so, is its magnitude enough to warrant being a religious film as opposed to a film in which there is religion?

As the movie you describe is using mythological symbols to structure its narrative (and maybe even create an allegory), it's probably worth including. Creating significance by deploying a pattern of mythological symbols is a religious film in my eyes, because it is establishing and working through the meaning of those symbols explicitly. That counts as dialoguing with a religion. The only question is: does it do enough of this to be worth including? If it's a central structural principle, then it sort of has to be.

The religious elements in Neon Genesis Evangelion are really overwhelming (here's the list of the monsters or 'Angels' that appear over the course of the series) and I think the real power of that show is that, from such an unassuming monsters of the week beginning, and at least in the TV series (the movies re-do the final run of episodes as a more expected action climax), the outside forces provoke but end up secondary to the internal crisis within the main character and complete dissolution of his physical body into a fractured psyche in the controversial last three or so episodes. I guess it is arguable - the religious elements and symbols are heavily layered on the superficial level but eventually it is all about just one individual overcoming his neuroses (either self imposed or caused by outside factors) and finding the confidence to rejoin the human race again.

(By the way I'll try and watch Haibane Renmei at some point too, as I also picked the DVD up a while back on Michael's recommendation!)

[Michael Kerpan]

Haibane Renmei is only 5 hours or so long -- and is, in fact, highly structured in its final form. The way it was put together, somewhat "on the fly", was not too different (in essence) from the way a Rivette film (like Pont du Nord) got made. ;~}

Disclosure -- I'm a charter member of a (still-ongoing) online community dedicated to the "study" of HR (with a minimal amount of fanboy/girl-ism). Of course, I've used that forum to promote Koreeda -- and even Ozu...

[John Cope]

Three frogs into the cauldron
Priest Antonia Bird
Hors Satan Bruno Dumont
Hadewijch Bruno Dumont

Dumont definitely merits serious consideration. I remember hating Priest and can't imagine bringing myself to watch it again though in all fairness it was twenty years ago that I saw it. My pick for a film within that milieu would be either Saverio Costanzo's deeply mysterious In Memory of Me or the deep immersion of Into Great Silence, though admittedly these exist more specifically within the milieu of cloistered communities. But to bring it back to the parish level, there's always the obvious Bresson or Melville or Pialat but even something like Mass Appeal(which isn't very good) seems better to me than the tortuously overwrought Priest.

Going back another couple of years, there's also Lourdes, which I liked much less than most but is also in that vaguely ironic / sarcastic modern mode.

I wanted to see this for quite some time but I was wary of it for just as long. I always approach these kind of pictures with trepidation as they almost inevitably fall into one of two camps: either that of purely pietistic portraits (a sop to the already convinced) or broad smear jobs. Either is generally awful as they're both equally lazy (there are, of course, exceptions). Jessica Hausner's film mercifully, even miraculously, manages to avoid those traps and she does it through exceedingly close and scrupulous detail work infused with a profound irony. This is a film in the by now all too familiar highly refined Euro art house aesthetic tradition but that form can certainly be used to great advantage and we see that here. It's all so carefully done. Hausner often plays it very close to either parody or to outright condemnatory portrayals of characters and attitudes but never crosses the line--somehow stays right on it to the very end. Incredible. And so very necessary I think. It really has to go as far as it does or it would not be far enough. Having said that, there were times (particularly during the last half hour) when I found myself chanting under my breath the Ronette Pulaski line from the pilot to Twin Peaks: "Don't go there." It is to Hausner's great credit that not only does she not go there (some kind of final definitive tell that would be the giveaway of a lesser film) but ends on a perfect note that maintains the consistent, remarkably striking ambiguous tone of the whole piece--a tone that brings just as much fear and disquiet as it does potential for joy and that's a supremely wise vision as well.

[jindianajonz]

I don't think Evangelion qualifies as a mini-series at 26 episodes.

I'm sure this discussion has been had before (probably ad nauseum, so feel free to point me in the right direction and I'll shut up) but what separates a TV show from a mini series? The FAQ for the list project just says miniseries are eligible while seasons/episodes of TV shows are not. I'd agree that 26 episodes is a bit excessive, but from what I understand the entire show was shot and aired as a single season, and in terms of running time these 20-odd minute episodes clock in shorter than some accepted mini-series like Band of Brothers or Berlin Alexanderplatz. I don't mean to push for classifying it one way or the other- I'm just curious where the line is drawn.

[swo17]

I don't know the specific answer for Evangelion, but I think it being one "season" long is more significant than there being 26 episodes. Haibane Renmei we have definitely called an eligible miniseries in the past.

[Michael Kerpan]

I think the test is whether there is some sort of over-arching story line -- or series of interconnected story lines -- that more or less requires the shows to be seen in the proper order -- and which comes to some sort of concluding point near the end. As opposed to a series in which episodes are largely self-contained and can be watched in almost any order. Something like The Prisoner would fall in between -- it certainly has a beginn9ng and end -- but the shows in between are mostly self-contained and can (and were) shown in just about any order.

[knives]

I think in the past with anime we've divided it up based on if it was OVA originally or not (FLCL being the big example I remember). That would definitely leave Neo Genesis out though I have no clue on Haibane Renmei.

[Michael Kerpan]

Another candidate -- hard (but perhaps not impossible) to find -- Ishmael Bernal's extraordinary Himala (Miracle) -- one of the greatest Filipino films ever. If you ever thought being able to do (or being considered able to do) miracles would be a good thing, this film will disabuse you of the notion.

[knives]

In the same breath, though presumably easier to find, Lino Brocka's A Plea to God is absolutely essential and sad.

[Michael Kerpan]

There is no rule that live action mini-series qualify only if made for direct-to-video distribution. So no reason for this to apply to animated works.

[Michael Kerpan]

In the same breath, though presumably easier to find, Lino Brocka's A Plea to God is absolutely essential and sad.

Sounds like a descendant of Diderot's/Rivette's La Religieuse. Another candidate for consideration -- along with Bunuel's Viridiana....

[Shrew]

I think the issue is less live-action versus animated, and more what qualifies as a mini-series, which is complicated by different production methods and network practices in Japan and the US. You can even throw the UK in here (like with the Prisoner, or any number of six-episode seasons of comedies). I'll admit I'm not an expert, but as far as I understand, a lot of Japanese anime programs are produced as single-season units, but still made episodically (as in episodes are written, performed/recorded, and animated in episodic chunks rather than as one big unit). Serialization is of course far more common in anime series than in most US shows (though this is changing--see Game of Thrones, True Detective, The Knick, even something like the 3rd/4th seasons of Babylon 5), but series are still conceived/produced differently from films, even if they have an overarching narrative.

For me, a key difference is that a television series can continue to be produced while it is also being exhibited. Early episodes might be airing while later ones are in production. Or at least earlier episodes reach a point where they can no longer be altered while later episodes are being finished (whereas a film or miniseries might still have time to rewrite/retake/reedit earlier scenes, or is filmed out of continuity). I think most anime TV series (and OVAs), including Evangelion and Haibane Renmei, are produced this way.

Granted, I don't know how the described production system applies to several other "miniseries" projects. Did Bergman film each episode of Fanny and Alexander separately or as one large movie? How did von Trier make the Kingdom?

Anyway, this is getting off-topic and maybe this should be moved to its own thread (or to the general Lists Project thread).